The Art of the Zag

AI now polls worse than ICE. Joe and Shane break down five stories of the AI revolt: booed CEOs, Gen Z sabotage, a $500M Claude Code bill, and the parent rebellion nobody’s pricing in. Chapters: (00:00) The AI backlash is everywhere (03:00) AI now polls worse than ICE (08:15) The real story of the Luddites (17:05) Eric Schmidt gets booed (29:42) Is the jobpocalypse canceled? (48:08) The $500M Claude Code bill (01:02:45) Parents vs. AI in NYC schools (01:08:51) Joe's 2028 election prediction

#14 · 1 h 13 min · 11 jun 2026

At Google I/O this week, the company revealed that the traditional 10 blue links experience is being replaced with a Gemini-powered AI chat experience. Joe and Shane break down what this means for publishers, creators, and anyone who still thinks of the web as a place you visit. Why would Google detonate its own golden goose? Joe and Shane work through the possibilities: cognitive entrenchment, the race to AGI, an AI delusion gripping Silicon Valley executives, and the very real possibility that Google is making a generational mistake in real time.

#13 · 34 min · 21 maj 2026

AI demos look great. AI in real production work? Different story. Last quarter, Shane wrapped a TV show — a hybrid of live action and animation. Going in, the social media hype around AI animation tools suggested they could carry real production work. Shane tested them and was massively disappointed. Every frame of animation in the final show ended up being done by humans. That's the AI reality gap — and it's the topic of this conversation. Where AI did earn its keep on Shane's show: the operational side. Contract management, episode tracking, organizing assets. The admin layer, not the creative one. Joe and Shane unpack Shane's experience on set, then bring in AJ Thomas — founder of Good Trouble Ventures and former head of global talent at Google X's Moonshot Factory — to map where AI actually delivers versus where the hype outpaces reality. AJ's own career arc is the second story of the episode: nine months in a Honda Civic, a T-Mobile mall cart hustle that took her to top 1% of sales, executive recruiting, leadership at the Moonshot Factory, and now running a venture fund at the intersection of creativity and technology. Along the way: 36 job applications that all came back no — and six of those companies who later became her biggest clients. WHAT YOU'LL HEAR What Shane learned testing AI animation tools — and why the social media hype was wrong Where AI actually delivered: admin workflows, contract management, scheduling "We are almost through the beautiful season of garbage" — AJ on AI slop "We are humans, and we decide when AI gets in the loop" — flipping the industry's favorite phrase From a T-Mobile mall cart to Google X to running a venture fund Nine months living in a Honda Civic in the Bay Area The "stupid question" that made AJ a top 1% salesperson 36 job applications, all no — and the six that became clients "AI-native skills are basic manners" — the contrarian take on AI workforce skills "Entry-level CEOs": AJ's reframe for new grads worried about AI Why managers who keep managing will get left behind "If you expect to be managed, you're gonna fail" GUEST AJ Thomas — Founder, Good Trouble Ventures Good Trouble Ventures: [TK] Troublemaker Lab: [TK] LinkedIn: [TK] CHAPTERS (00:00) Joe and Shane on AI on set (01:41) Where AI animation fell short (08:54) AJ Thomas joins (15:22) Nine months in a Honda Civic (26:11) I don't fit into any resume (49:32) We decide when AI gets in the loop (01:00:29) Entry-level CEOs (01:05:26) Expect to be managed, you fail LISTEN / SUBSCRIBE Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2230ldzxpy4ghDz2WXCXJk Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-the-zag/id1873441245 Substack: https://storytellingedge.substack.com/podcast ABOUT THE SHOW The Art of the Zag is the podcast about people who win big by zagging when everyone else is zigging. Hosted by Joe Lazer (bestselling author of The Storytelling Edge and Super Skill) and Shane Snow (bestselling author of Smartcuts and Dream Teams). #TheArtOfTheZag #JoeLazer #ShaneSnow #AJThomas #GoodTroubleVentures #AIRealityGap #FutureOfWork #AI #VentureCapital #Storytelling

#12 · 1 h 7 min · 19 maj 2026

What if a neuroscientist could measure exactly which stories change your brain -- and which ones fall flat?Dr. Paul Zak is the neuroeconomist who spent two decades answering that question. His lab discovered that great stories spike oxytocin -- the neurochemical behind trust -- and built a platform that can predict which messages will change behavior with over 80% accuracy. Joe and Shane have written about his work extensively, and in this conversation, they go deep on the foundational science of storytelling, Zak's response to the critics, and his newest research on the science of happiness.Dr. Zak is a professor at Claremont Graduate University, founder of Immersion Neuroscience, and author of four books including his latest, The Little Book of Happiness.Website: https://pauljzak.comFree SIX App: https://your6.comThe Little Book of Happiness: https://www.amazon.com/Little-Book-Happiness-Scientific-Approach/dp/1544547870Immersion Neuroscience: https://getimmersion.comChapters:(00:00) The scientist who made Shane cry(01:46) Dr. Paul Zak joins the show(02:28) The DARPA project behind storytelling(08:31) The 15-second rule(20:25) Does oxytocin have a dark side?(29:22) Six peak experiences a day to thrive(38:12) Isolation, Gen Z, and screen time(43:49) A video that reduced racial bias(47:49) Testosterone and political leanings(57:01) You are a weirdo

#11 · 59 min · 4 maj 2026

Two ex-McKinsey consultants quit the firm in the early 90s to do the opposite of what McKinsey does. The first time they tried it, one company found $400 million in earnings.Jeremy Eden and Terri Long, co-CEOs of Harvest Earnings Group and authors of the New York Times bestseller "Low-Hanging Fruit," join Joe Lazer and Shane Snow to break down theIdea Harvest methodology — a 100-day process that asks the people closest to the work, not the executives in the boardroom, where the company is broken. The answers, it turns out, are almost always already inside.Get the book "Low-Hanging Fruit: 77 Eye-Opening Ways to Improve Productivity and Profits": https://www.harvestearnings.com/lowhangingfruitMore on Harvest Earnings: https://www.harvestearnings.comJeremy and Terri's podcast "The Elephant in the Boardroom" is on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.CHAPTERS(00:00) Why companies fear edgy ideas(05:08) Jeremy and Terri join the show(11:19) Why Jeremy quit McKinsey(22:34) Why companies still hire McKinsey(24:00) Heinz: 3,000 ideas in 30 days(37:40) The AI desperation trap(1:04:32) "Relax" and the case against benchmarking

#10 · 1 h 11 min · 27 apr 2026

How does a fiction writer build one of the most influential tech publications on the planet – by publishing 15,000-word essays for an audience that everyone says has no time to read?Mario Gabriele, founder of The Generalist (163K+ subscribers, $22/month), broke every conventional rule of media and won. In this episode, Joe and Shane sit down with Mario to steal the secrets behind his unlikely media empire – from his origin story as a VC associate writing fiction before work every morning, to his counterintuitive bet on depth over speed, to why he thinks it’s extremely good to quit things.Guest links: The Generalist: https://www.generalist.com/ Mario on X: https://twitter.com/mariogabriele Mario on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariogabriele/(00:00) How long should a newsletter be? (03:47) Mario Gabriele joins the show (13:36) The origin story: “the right amount of delusional” (20:04) The under-competed part of the attention stack (28:07) Joe’s $70K bet on The Generalist (38:30) Illogical bets on depth: what’s actually worked (43:31) Can AI replace long-form writers? (49:22) “It’s extremely good to quit things”

#9 · 52 min · 13 apr 2026

How does a poet get corporations like Nike, Google, and Toyota to pay $50,000+ per performance? Grammy-nominated spoken word artist Sekou Andrews created "Poetic Voice" — a groundbreaking fusion of spoken word poetry and keynote speaking that has made him what Forbes calls "the de facto poet laureate of corporate America."In this episode of The Art of the Zag, Sekou tells us how a 5th grade teacher in South Central LA accidentally fell in love with poetry, won back-to-back National Slam Poetry championships, and built a seven-figure business on what he calls "a dead art form you hated in high school." He also breaks down why corporations chronically undervalue art and storytelling — and why that's about to change in the age of AI.ABOUT SEKOU ANDREWS:Website: https://sekouandrews.comStage Might Training: https://getstagemight.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sekouKOUMAMI album: Available on all streaming platformsWSB profile: https://www.wsb.com/speakers/sekou-andrews/(00:00) Intro (02:50) Sekou Andrews joins the show (05:00) How hip-hop led to spoken word (07:00) The moment he knew he could do this (08:00) Becoming a "full-time mermaid" (09:50) Quitting teaching (11:00) Making rent in CD sales (12:00) The echoes of confirmation (12:52) How Shane discovered Sekou (14:42) The decade of survival (19:00) The Nike analyst meeting (22:30) The "Consumer 2.0" performance (26:00) Poetry has business value (29:00) Information over inspiration (33:08) The neuroscience of storytelling (35:50) Storytelling is collecting dust (37:00) "Get rid of the word poetry" (42:00) Art as the vehicle for content (43:00) The one thing AI can't touch (48:00) Singer vs. rapper vs. poet (51:00) AI wants to give us goosebumps (53:51) Upgrade your human operating system (57:30) The stage collapse story (58:53) Closing Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

#8 · 1 h 2 min · 31 mar 2026

Why don't we trust the Terminator? He's strong, smart, and always keeps his word — but nobody would trust him. The answer reveals the hidden psychology of trust that most people never think about.In this episode, Joe Lazer and Shane Snow sit down with Dr. F. David Schoorman, a Purdue University professor whose research on trust has been cited over 50,000 times — including what's widely considered the most influential psychology paper of the 1990s. His new research flips the conventional wisdom on trust: it's often the person doing the trusting, not the person being trusted, who destroys the relationship.We explore why Americans trust strangers far more than any other culture, why your boss probably trusts you more than you trust them, how 85% of Gen Z students track each other's locations without realizing what it signals, and why Tiger Woods' PR team understood the psychology of betrayal better than most psychologists.Key topics:The three pillars of trust — and the hidden one most people missThe Terminator Test: Shane's framework for why we trust (or don't)Why location-sharing apps may be destroying your relationshipsHow the "trustor" — the person doing the trusting — often sabotages trustWhy Americans are the most trusting culture in the worldThe trust gap between bosses and employeesHow remote work created a trust vacuumWhy you should never talk about business in a first meetingExcessive transparency as a "control system" that kills trustThe pandemic generation's trust crisisCan trust be repaired after betrayal? A preview of Dr. Schoorman's next researchThe Tiger Woods case study: reframing betrayal as an ability problemAbout our guest:Dr. F. David Schoorman is a Professor of Organizational Behavior and Human Resource Management at Purdue University's Daniels School of Business. He received the Academy of Management's "Distinguished Educator" career award in 2007. His foundational 1995 paper "An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust" (with Mayer and Davis) was recognized as the most influential article published in the Academy of Management Review in the 1990s.Research discussed in this episode:"An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust" (Mayer, Davis, Schoorman, 1995): https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/amr.1995.9508080335"What We Do While Waiting: The Experience of Vulnerability in Trusting Relationships" (Ballinger, Schoorman, Sharma, 2024): https://journals.aom.org/doi/abs/10.5465/amr.2022.0080"An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust: Past, Present, and Future" (Schoorman, Mayer, Davis, 2007): https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/amr.2007.24348410Chapters:(00:

#7 · 40 min · 17 mar 2026

A 55-year-old man had metal plates ripped from his leg with zero painkillers. His vital signs stayed completely stable. How? The science of belief — and it changes everything you think about your limits.Bestselling author Nir Eyal (Hooked, Indistractable) joins Joe Lazer and Shane Snow to reveal why your biggest limitations aren't physical — they're psychological. His new book Beyond Belief breaks down how the hidden stories we tell ourselves shape what we see, what we feel, and what we achieve. This conversation will make you rethink everything from your relationships to your career to whether your IBS is real. (Joe's words, not ours.) In this episode:-The insane true story of Daniel Gisler's surgery under hypnosedation-Why Nir went from writing the tech addiction playbook to writing its cure-The "motivation triangle" — and the missing leg that explains why you don't follow through-How your brain filters 11 million bits of info down to 50 (and why that matters)-The 4 questions that transformed Nir's relationship with his family-Why most talk therapy might be no better than a placebo-The Harvard study where placebos worked even when patients knew they were fake-Why your labels might be your limits — and the ADHD diagnosis that proves it-Tyler Cowan, Kyla Scanlon, and the thinkers Nir, Joe, and Shane are following right now📖 Get Beyond Belief + bonus content (100-page belief transformation journal, live workshop, and more): https://www.nirandfar.com/beyond-belief/🌐 Follow Nir: https://www.nirandfar.com⏱️ Timestamps:(00:00) How Shane was a Mormon missionary in Joe's hometown(06:06) Nir Eyal joins the show(06:53) From Hooked to Indistractable: Nir's career as a zag(08:29) "I write because of what I want to know"(10:24) The moment with his daughter that changed everything(12:41) "Your book didn't work": the calls that inspired Beyond Belief(14:26) The motivation triangle(17:00) The 3 powers of belief: attention, anticipation, agency(17:26) How diets make food look physically bigger(19:02) The Daniel Gisler story: surgery with no anesthesia(20:42) Your brain processes 11 million bits per second(24:43) Chronic pain, tinnitus, and the fear-pain loop(25:07) "All pain is real. But suffering is optional."(30:42) Facts vs. faith vs. belief(32:24) The mom and the flowers(35:48) "Beliefs are tools, not truths"(37:22) How do you actually change a limiting belief?(38:05) Why most talk therapy is no better than placebo(39:22) Byron Katie's 4 questions(41:26) "Love is measured by the benefit of the doubt"(43:25) Joe's toddler vs. the fundamental attribution error(46:01) The placebo that works when you know it's fake(50:12) The I Love Lucy conveyor

#6 · 1 h 14 min · 10 mar 2026

In this episode, Shane Snow interviews Joe Lazer about his new book—Super Skill: Why Storytelling Is the Superpower of the AI Age, which launched this past week as an Amazon #1 New Release. They dissect why companies like Anthropic and OpenAI are paying $500K+ for storytelling roles, how storytelling serves as a meta-skill that makes us better at all the soft skills that matter most in the next age of work, and how AI will transform the way we tell stories. Watch/Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2230ldzxpy4ghDz2WXCXJkListen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-the-zag/id1873441245Watch and Subscribe on Substack: https://storytellingedge.substack.com/podcast Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

#5 · 1 h 5 min · 3 mar 2026

There’s one terrifying fact about AI that most people are shocked to learn: They’re a black box. We don’t really know how they work.That’s right—we’re spending trillions of dollars on a technology that’s almost zoodoo magic.The consequences of this are dire. It increases the existential risk of AI. It also means that when a model runs awry, AI producers can’t debug it.But one startup is changing that with a novel approach to fixing AI that everyone in Silicon Valley thought was crazy. Just 18 months in, they're worth $1.25 billion, and might change the trajectory of AI—and our economy—in the process.Listen/watch to our conversation with Dan Balsam—CTO and co-founder of Goodfire:* Listen/watch on Spotify* Listen on Apple Podcasts* Watch it on YouTube* Watch/Listen/Subscribe on SubstackImportant research we mention:Goodfire’s research on discovering novel Alzheimer’s biomarkersGoodfire’s research on reducing AI hallucinations Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

#4 · 1 h 24 min · 17 feb 2026

Following the murder of Alex Pretti by border patrol agents, it’s never been more important for us to be able to discern truth from reality and understand when we’re being manipulated. That’s why, for the second episode of The Art of the Zag, I wanted to have a conversation with my co-host Shane Snow about a semi-viral essay he wrote following the murder of Alex Pretti in Minnesota: “How to Tell When You’re Being Manipulated By a Story.” Shane has extensively researched and reported on the tactics used by authoritarians in Central and South America since the 1960s, and he revealed three key manipulation tactics you need to know.Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2230ldzxpy4ghDz2WXCXJk Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-the-zag/id1873441245Listen and subscribe on Substack: https://storytellingedge.substack.com/ Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

#3 · 37 min · 10 feb 2026

In the first episode of The Art of the Zag, Substack co-founder Hamish McKenzie reveals his strategy to cure social media's "mental illness" and how Substack will handle the coming deluge of AI slop. Plus, Joe and Shane's 2026 predictions! Have a pitch for a guest or feedback on the show? Email guest@joelazer.com.Get the Art of the Zag on:* Spotify* Apple Podcasts* YouTube Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

#2 · 1 h 32 min · 4 feb 2026

Best-selling authors and long-time buddies Shane Snow and Joe Lazer explore how to win by zagging when everyone else is zigging—in business and in life. Learn breakthrough strategies for building trust, telling better stories, and winning the AI Age from the world's most innovative founders, authors, and icons. Have an idea for a guest? Email guest@joelazer.com. Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

#1 · 2 min · 30 jan 2026